tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post9067685248905039033..comments2023-08-17T11:47:11.821+01:00Comments on James and the Blue Cat: Genre, give up your secrets!James Henryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16604261370633794445noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-63283820400603424312009-01-29T14:41:00.000+00:002009-01-29T14:41:00.000+00:00Its a laugh to listen to you guys.I work as a scri...Its a laugh to listen to you guys.<BR/><BR/>I work as a scriptwriter in Greece. I wish your problems were mine.<BR/><BR/>Apart from that couldn't agree more with your comments on the failings of understanding genre.<BR/><BR/>And might I add that most people in the business also fail to understand that 'reality' is a genre.T.C. Jakobsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07009750747511848370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-76145159771456100372009-01-20T13:14:00.000+00:002009-01-20T13:14:00.000+00:00Ooh blimey, hello Stephen!Just had a similar thing...Ooh blimey, hello Stephen!<BR/><BR/>Just had a similar thing, where my superhero treatment has been turned down, while two other much more experienced writers have had their very promising superhero scripts stacked in a holding pattern because 'Heroes has nailed the genre so well'.<BR/><BR/>Which, of course, it hasn't. And no-one ever said that because Inspector Morse was so successful, I'm afraid we can't have any more crime dramas for a few years' did they?James Henryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604261370633794445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-4013573742496616742009-01-20T12:57:00.000+00:002009-01-20T12:57:00.000+00:00The last straw for me came when I pitched two show...The last straw for me came when I pitched two shows to the BBC in 2007 and was told, "No thanks, we're making BONEKICKERS." Which neither of them in any sense resembled.<BR/><BR/>I realised then that it wasn't a matter of concept clash or any other similarity. Just as there's only ever room for one TV magician or headlining black comedian, they reckon you only need one running-around-and-special-effects show at a time to service the man-children and femgeeks who inexplicably like that kind of thing.Stephen Gallagherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05280419153030490653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-76957942014822774122009-01-09T11:28:00.000+00:002009-01-09T11:28:00.000+00:00Oh, and I'm currently working on pre-production on...Oh, and I'm currently working on pre-production on my film "Making Movies", which can best be described as "Be Kind Rewind" meets "Shaun Of The Dead" meets "The Producers"...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-68527893068156480602009-01-09T11:25:00.000+00:002009-01-09T11:25:00.000+00:00It also works for comedy as well.ATM in Germany, t...It also works for comedy as well.<BR/><BR/>ATM in Germany, the stages are heaving with Mario Barth soundalikes.<BR/><BR/>BTW, if you think Brit TV doesn't get Genre, you should see German TV.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-38986216813068657922009-01-09T11:22:00.000+00:002009-01-09T11:22:00.000+00:00"So why is so much of it just rubbish?"Because of ..."So why is so much of it just rubbish?"<BR/><BR/>Because of Sturgeon's Law.<BR/><BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon's_law<BR/><BR/>What you have to realize is that every "movement" in music, film, TV or popular arts is basically two or three originators or leaders, and the rest are just jumping on the bandwagon, because this is what sells these days.<BR/><BR/>That's why, after the first Star Wars, we had a few years of some of the most awful "space epics" ever seen ("Starcrash", anyone? After seeing that, you can't blame the Hoff for becoming an alcoholic), and of course, in music, you basically get two or three core bands to a movement, and the rest are opportunists and mimics.<BR/><BR/>This post is brought to you by "tringle". Probably the best word verification word I've ever had. Beats WGWMFDRWMF any day.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-51146276124376855982009-01-09T01:07:00.000+00:002009-01-09T01:07:00.000+00:00It's a shame.Ever latching onto one aspect of a su...It's a shame.<BR/><BR/>Ever latching onto one aspect of a successful show/film/whatever is dangerous and lazy, and all too common. The deluge of gangster movies that followed Lock Stock was painful, and because of The Dark Knight's success, suddenly all superhero movies have to be 'dark', which conveniently ignores that the movie did well because it was really really good, not because of any lighting deficiency.Olihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03302441388002744047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-79572089498134636302009-01-08T21:47:00.000+00:002009-01-08T21:47:00.000+00:00Fella, an excellent post that really gets to the h...Fella, an excellent post that really gets to the heart of the problem<BR/><BR/>I’m having great problems not just with watching UK dramas but with audiences that accept them without question. It’s like the emperor has been stark bollock naked for so long that I’m surprised he hasn’t died of hypothermia. <BR/><BR/>None of them have the intelligence or even the wit of the best American dramas. None of them understand that drama comes from conflict between people not splattering the TV screen with whatever CGI novelties a facilities house has cobbled together. Such effects are like a flashy mobile hung above a cot and if that’s all there is, are the viewers expected to simply lie back and gurgle in delight before pooping themselves?<BR/><BR/>A few friends are apparently fans of television science fiction but don’t watch <I>Battlestar Galactica</I>. They haven’t seen <I>Firefly</I>. Instead they sit down and watch the blue box, old and new. To them science fiction is just the bells and whistles attached – idiotic scenes like the TARDIS pulling the planet back home to the solar system. When I tell them a particular story or element didn’t make any sense at all, there response is always: “It doesn’t matter, it’s science fiction!” (At which point I’m usually bashing my head against the bar in utter frustration).<BR/><BR/>But I think it’s not just the audience saying that. Those six words must be said in the production process. If not, then things are very, very wrong. Also there’s nobody in the mix to point out that various stories have already appeared in whatever book/TV series/movie already and done way much better. What’s the point of doing a cheap knock-off and doing it badly? Obviously there are schedules involved and everything is made against the clock, but doing the obvious isn’t something to be proud of.<BR/><BR/>The cheapest part of any production process is the blank piece of paper. Unless they want to make the kind of shows that, if they were shown on CBeebies, had the target audience wondering they were watching this piece of crap, producers should think about getting some form of writers room together where people can spitball ideas, shoot down the nonsense, and put something decent together. Because, really, it’s getting seriously embarrassing.<BR/><BR/>And thinking back to how utterly brilliant UK drama used to be, that’s a great shame.Good Doghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10789861569691613179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-30061361298769435812009-01-08T21:30:00.000+00:002009-01-08T21:30:00.000+00:00I could be wrong, but was this mini-debate prompte...I could be wrong, but was this mini-debate prompted by 'Demons'? <BR/><BR/>That definitely made me feel the writers don't get the supernatural/horror genre - nor the knowing, witty subversions of it like Buffy. I watched it last night and went to bed a mass of conflicting opinions.<BR/><BR/>Mainly - 'It's rubbish!'<BR/><BR/>But then - 'No, give it time. It's Saturday afternoon entertainment aimed primarily at a younger audience. The kids will be down with it.'<BR/><BR/>Then - 'No! It's really rubbish!'<BR/><BR/>But then - 'No. It had a lot to set up in the first episode. It'll be better in when the characters have had time to settle in and develop. They'll stop saying "smite" soon.'<BR/><BR/>Then - 'No, it really is rubbish! If they can't set up the characters and premise without it being rubbish, then it's rubbish! And they'll be "smiting" each others asses off for the rest of the series!'<BR/><BR/>But then - 'No, you're being unfair. Think of the complexity of the backstory. It's not easy to explain that in less than an hour and keep people gripped.'<BR/><BR/>Then - No, it's rubbish! Buffy did it! They just ripped off Buffy and did it badly! it's a rubbish British Buffy with a boy!<BR/><BR/>I had no argument against myself at that point. <BR/><BR/>I was astonished by how shameless it was too. I was drinking a glass of wine at the time. When I put the glass down I saw sporadic 'impact' ripples in the liquid and thought - 'Wheedon's coming!'<BR/><BR/>I'll probably give it another go though. I did with Primeval, and now I love it - but then I like dinosaurs ;-)<BR/><BR/>JimAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-55467455377979911202009-01-08T20:46:00.000+00:002009-01-08T20:46:00.000+00:00Glad you liked the metaphor - I was fond of it whe...Glad you liked the metaphor - I was fond of it when I wrote it (enough that it made me suspicious and I almost killed it).<BR/><BR/>Another funny thing that has occurred to me is that, in general, we Yanks tend to think that British telly is the superior brand. Yes, we have our Buffy and our Battlestar (Mark II - for the most epic rubbish imaginable, you need only watch about a picosecond of the original BSG), but we also have stupid jerks at networks who pull the plug on shows like <A>Firefly and Wonderfalls</A> after only a few episodes, among other crimes (pardon the many-years-old baby blogger preciousness in the linked piece).<BR/><BR/>Our good genre shows are also usually relegated to third-tier cable channels which are packaged in all-or-nothing plans that cost extra for the viewer and thereby limit audiences to those who will pay for a great swathe of channels they will never watch (though, as they say, the Internet is changing that). These channels also have minuscule budgets compared to the bigger networks. So we end up with BSG going extinct because it's a hellishly expensive show to produce and the SciFi channel can't bear the cost any longer (even though it's the top rated show for the channel).<BR/><BR/>We also have our share of producers who don't "get" genre, yet produce it for the cash - e.g. shows like Tru Calling, New Amsterdam, The Ghost Whisperer - all rubbish, IMO, largely because they focus on the gimmicks and not on the people stories. Well, that, and the fact that their attempts at "witty" or "edgy" or "flippant" humor tend to trip over their own feet, only to raise their feeble heads and say, "Oh, okay - insert whatever Joss Whedon would have written here. That's what I was trying for anyway."jillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13752779296599153304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-13186294473237204542009-01-08T20:37:00.000+00:002009-01-08T20:37:00.000+00:00You've summed up a lot of the reasons I just don't...You've summed up a lot of the reasons I just don't dig the majority of British TV or film. I also find anytime a UK production attempts to appeal to the most people it becomes incredibly bland, thus any of TV show or movie that attempts to go all American with its production values and format and it becomes laughably shit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-63127057152648033222009-01-08T20:07:00.000+00:002009-01-08T20:07:00.000+00:00i was going to write a detailed, thoughtful commen...i was going to write a detailed, thoughtful comment but am too tired. <BR/><BR/>PS <I> many a British television producer...only got into television in the first place because publishing is too poorly-paid </I><BR/><BR/>true that.Jaynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09821105000840199542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-37376808534959763462009-01-08T20:04:00.000+00:002009-01-08T20:04:00.000+00:00Yup, totally. They give good trailer then don't fo...Yup, totally. They give good trailer then don't follow through.Karen's Mouthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16398621248761437631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-51959021868109328742009-01-08T19:16:00.000+00:002009-01-08T19:16:00.000+00:00Hmm, interesting stuff, ta.I kind of feel bad abou...Hmm, interesting stuff, ta.<BR/><BR/>I kind of feel bad about Bonekickers, because I spend most of my time whinging that broadcasters don't just let successful writers do whatever they want. Then when they take a chance, they get hammered for it. Although I did hear that the earlier version of Bonekickers was much more full-on, with more overtly supernatural stuff going on, only for them to bottle it at the last minute.<BR/><BR/>Mind you, all the above should take into account the fact that I saw the first episode of the new Who (with Christopher Ecclestone), thought Christ, this is absolute <I>rubbish</I> and gave up after half an hour, assuming it was doomed to failure. Clearly in touch with what the public want there....James Henryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604261370633794445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-79508448881829112822009-01-08T18:46:00.000+00:002009-01-08T18:46:00.000+00:00What's it all about?Of the shows you mention:Prime...What's it all about?<BR/><BR/>Of the shows you mention:<BR/><BR/>Primeval is about Success (the success of Doctor Who)<BR/><BR/>Demons is about Misunderstanding (misunderstanding the point of Buffy, as you deftly point out) <BR/><BR/>Spooks Code 9 is about Politics (BBC internal politics and the need to have some yoof-targeted drama output)<BR/><BR/>Survivors is about Recycling (write yer own gag).<BR/><BR/>Bonekickers is about Trust (and what happens when you trust TV writers to do what they want to do. I bet the Producers Guild were watching every wretched episode with glee...)<BR/><BR/>Merlin is about... Actually Merlin is the only one of the crop that has a genuine subtext, albeit it's the subtext of the X-Men. But the dynamic of the series at least allow them the possibility of exploring bigotry, persecution, adolescent sexual confusion. They don't always write every close to that (and it looks like they have that 2D secondary character rulein place, as well), but Merlin looks to me like the one series amongst these that could run and run, because it's been built carefully with characters who stand for conflicting things occupying the centre stage. The dialogue and narrative are as vanilla as they come, but I'd say the series has got good "bones".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-115149734967127872009-01-08T17:16:00.000+00:002009-01-08T17:16:00.000+00:00I think I could forive a lot of the above shows if...I think I could forive a lot of the above shows if they weren't so blimmin' pleased with themselves, making out their ideas were going to BLOW YOU AWAY, whereas in fact, if you'd read a few SF novels, or watched much quality US telly, there was just a massive sense of 'seen it'.James Henryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604261370633794445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-68797837882218358702009-01-08T16:50:00.000+00:002009-01-08T16:50:00.000+00:00YES. You're so right. I feel relieved frankly. Tha...YES. You're so right. I feel relieved frankly. Thank you. In the face of a load of stuff that I'd been really excited about seeing and then been all 'meh' about, much of which you mentioned, I really thought I was just getting old and miserable and would have to do something drastic like stop watching the telly.Karen's Mouthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16398621248761437631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-90442763912138439792009-01-08T16:42:00.000+00:002009-01-08T16:42:00.000+00:00Yeah, I'm quite happy to pitch things as 'X meets ...Yeah, I'm quite happy to pitch things as 'X meets Y' really, it's sort of useful shorthand that allows execs to fill the gaps themselves. In fact, I care less and less what the setting is for the things I'm pitching, these days, as characters are far more important. Which is a shame really, as development execs tend to prefer things the other way around. Not because they're soulless monsters, but because they have to work out whether the show has enough legs for more than one series (or in some cases, more than one episode).James Henryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604261370633794445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-80911335778134451362009-01-08T16:35:00.001+00:002009-01-08T16:35:00.001+00:00"it's become incredibly hard to come up with an id..."it's become incredibly hard to come up with an idea that doesn't on first glance sound like three other shows either on the screen now, or already in development."<BR/><BR/>Tell me about it!<BR/><BR/>Every time I come up with a new idea, I come back to it a few days later and realise it will be rejected as "X meets Y". <BR/><BR/>Or, perhaps worse, it will be <B>accepted</B> as "X meets Y" and not judged on its own merits.<BR/><BR/>OK, being accepted might not be that bad. Quite good actually.Paul Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10758955807661623583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-5104676176226827762009-01-08T16:35:00.000+00:002009-01-08T16:35:00.000+00:00Ooh cool comments people, ta. Jill, I liked the 'v...Ooh cool comments people, ta. Jill, I liked the 'vehicle is mistaken for the ride' metaphor, very useful.<BR/><BR/>Laurence, no I don't think we're fucked at all. In fact, I suspect a lot of these shows aren't going to last the distance, which means people will stop jumping on the bandwagon, which might lead to fewer, better genre shows. Fingers crossed.James Henryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604261370633794445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-63705327696778605422009-01-08T16:05:00.000+00:002009-01-08T16:05:00.000+00:00It's so true. I've thought it for ages now. The fa...It's so true. I've thought it for ages now. The fact is - Brit TV doesnt take anything sci-fi/fantasy/horror seriously. They have to do it tongue in cheak, cos they feel the Brit audience won't be able to cope and believe it if it's taken seriously. So without the seriousness, there are no messages. You see??<BR/><BR/>Well said my friend!Neilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07870545005924820667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-91668137335418220952009-01-08T15:49:00.000+00:002009-01-08T15:49:00.000+00:00james: isn't there a real chance that the money wi...james: isn't there a real chance that the money will walk away from genre before the people know understand genre get the chance to make it?laurence timmshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04366127170754753612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-74706987504166197232009-01-08T15:27:00.000+00:002009-01-08T15:27:00.000+00:00So why is so much of it just rubbish?I'll tell you...<B><I>So why is so much of it just rubbish?</I></B><BR/><BR/>I'll tell you for why, sir. The reason is the same as it ever was: people who don't understand genre are making some of the new genre shows. Some of them are jumping on the bandwagon, without knowing or even *liking* genre. Which staggers me.<BR/><BR/>Here's how it goes down: RTD, who thoroughly understands and loves genre, makes a genre show (DW). Genre show is a huge success. Everyone else thinks, ah, genre is the thing now, they make money, let's make genre shows. They then hire writers/producers/directors who have a track record to make those shows.<BR/><BR/>The trouble is, they hire people with a track record on *non-genre* shows. Said people haven't seen much genre, and have decided that it is silly and rubbish. *Their* genre show is going to be much better, deeper, more relevant, they say. But they have never seen an episode of Buffy, or The Twilight Zone, or The Prisoner, etc etc. So they come up with stuff that's been done a million times before, or that's just not interesting.<BR/><BR/>Rinse and repeat. Replace "show" with "movie", and you get the same result. This has been a blight on horror movies for a few years now - "ooh, horror makes money, I know, I'll do a horror movie, it'll be easy, I've seen one or two, and I'll make loads of money, besides, horror is stupid, it's just gore and tits, I can write it in five minutes, job done." No, it's not easy, unless you want to make a shit movie, then mission accomplished. I have been in more than one meeting where the person is being patronising about genre, while attempting to get his genre-based project off the ground. Obviously it's not the case for all shows, most producers are lovely and brilliant, etc etc, but this is how it happens a lot of the time, and why genre was a dirty word on TV for many, many years.<BR/><BR/>However. It will get better. More people who understand genre are being trusted to create it. It's not difficult, the answer has been staring everyone in the face for years. Successful genre shows are created by people who know and love genre. It's fairly simple, and they'll catch up soon enough.James Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11949906302217025023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-47627414143341248922009-01-08T15:23:00.000+00:002009-01-08T15:23:00.000+00:00Oh, dear lord yes. I want so badly for things lik...Oh, dear lord yes. I want so badly for things like Primeval to be good - but instead, I get to throw things and yell stuff at the TV like, "It's NOT ABOUT THE DINOSAURS." <BR/><BR/>Extrapolating from the evidence, as an outsider to the TV industry, I think there's also a fair amount of people who don't like "genre," don't get it, and don't want to. However, these people understand that there are many people who enjoy these entertainments and money is to be made. So they confuse the vehicle for the ride, and we get stories that are about dinosaurs, instead of stories about people being people when confronted by dinosaurs. The former is always dull, whereas the latter has the potential to be interesting.<BR/><BR/>(Also, apologies for my comment to your last post - for some reason I really thought you were talking about Buffy itself, which only shows I can't be trusted with basic tasks such as tying my own shoes.)jillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13752779296599153304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-35694676283592349622009-01-08T15:07:00.000+00:002009-01-08T15:07:00.000+00:00Basically, we're f*cked. Is that what you're sayin...Basically, we're f*cked. Is that what you're saying?laurence timmshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04366127170754753612noreply@blogger.com