tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post5617469017770102960..comments2023-08-17T11:47:11.821+01:00Comments on James and the Blue Cat: Why do female comedy writers tend to be writer/performers?James Henryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16604261370633794445noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-36816057303676061342008-12-16T13:05:00.000+00:002008-12-16T13:05:00.000+00:00I think I like Karen.I think I like Karen.Bozhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02065257907482952779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-25785476263700365372008-12-11T10:39:00.000+00:002008-12-11T10:39:00.000+00:00One name that I haven't seen here (please forgive ...One name that I haven't seen here (please forgive me if I've missed it) is Lisa Meyer - remember her anyone? Latest outing as the wronged wife of Angus Deayton. Wrote on first series of Young Ones and Blackadder, then barged out of the way when they became successful. No mention of her ever on any of those comedy history programmes.Sylviahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12928164168526819245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-35743200446601109722008-12-10T17:08:00.000+00:002008-12-10T17:08:00.000+00:00also Alice Lowe and Steve Oram write together. Be...also Alice Lowe and Steve Oram write together. Ben Willbond and Katy Brand have written together.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-1089811224424731682008-12-10T17:07:00.000+00:002008-12-10T17:07:00.000+00:00i'm a writing duo - messina and rusling and then w...i'm a writing duo - messina and rusling and then we do bearded ladies with donkin and mcdougal making us a quad team.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-30505095505794564992008-12-10T14:30:00.000+00:002008-12-10T14:30:00.000+00:00Women duos incl Mel & Sue, Bearded Ladies... B...Women duos incl Mel & Sue, Bearded Ladies... Boy-girl incl the Ruth Jones & James Cordon, the Krankies, Nadia Kamil and John-Luke Roberts...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-71618420123927124302008-12-10T13:42:00.000+00:002008-12-10T13:42:00.000+00:00Boz: Yes.Last comment I promise. I think this is l...Boz: Yes.<BR/><BR/>Last comment I promise. I think this is less about equal opportunities, particularly as females apparently do so well in other areas of writing. I know nothing at all about this industry, but it seems the point is perhaps more about the TYPE of people who become comedy writers, rather than their gender... <BR/><BR/>"In short, most comedy writers are borderline Aspergers, which isn't as common in women"<BR/><BR/>Most people 'like that' are men but not all men are 'like that' i.e. geeks. Some are women i.e. me. <BR/><BR/>And I also think this is what's being referred to as single-mindedness, which is perhaps being taken to mean ambition or drive or something.<BR/><BR/>I think Boz might be talking about Simon Baron-Cohen's work (uncle of Sacha). Austisitc spectrum disorder affects men more at a ratio of something like 4:1. Baron-Cohen's theory is that austism is a form of extreme male brain (systemising) whereas extreme female brains are empathising. We are all somewhere along these spectrums. Most people are some mixture of the two. <BR/><BR/>According to the test I'm 50:50 (my brain that is, I'm not "Keith's Mouth" by day or anything)Karen's Mouthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16398621248761437631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-38521948006964242712008-12-10T12:19:00.000+00:002008-12-10T12:19:00.000+00:00It's certainly a fair point that women are unforgi...It's certainly a fair point that women are unforgivably under-represented in a wide range of industries, and there are still jobs that for better or worse are more associated with one sex than another. That of course does not mean that either sex is any better or worse at them.<BR/><BR/>Before I go *any* further, let the record state I am passionate about equal opportunity and rights along gender (or for that matter almost any) basis. I think I am a feminist in the sense that I absolutely believe in equal rights regardless of sex. <BR/><BR/>However, I dimly recall some vague research about the differences in the way men and women think, and use their brains. Which may or may have derived from evolution. Would it be fair to say then that they way we use our brains affects they way we work and what we might be more inclined to do?<BR/><BR/>The beauty of that research was it that it found a lot of exceptions that proved the rule; it discovered men in 'traditionally female' professions that tended to use their brain more like the 'normal' women model - proving we're all different beasts anyway. I reckon I might be a bit like this, sometimes. Going back to an earlier comment - if I were a writer, I reckon I would be more inclined to be a novelist, rather than a scriptwriter (which is a moot point anyway).<BR/><BR/>All this is by-the-by, because I don't care where my comedy comes from, so long as it makes me larf. And my money is on this trend changing over the next few years, hopefully.<BR/><BR/>Anyway. KNICKERS.<BR/><BR/>(Sorry - was worried this was a bit of a serious comment).Bozhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02065257907482952779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-72959824795142379062008-12-10T11:00:00.000+00:002008-12-10T11:00:00.000+00:00Newf - good point, I'd forgotten about them. Maybe...Newf - good point, I'd forgotten about them. Maybe because he's gone on to write with other people - and as he pointed out when complaining about the American remake, she often doesn't get the credit she deservesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-5420837666263852382008-12-10T10:48:00.001+00:002008-12-10T10:48:00.001+00:00'Well, look no further than James and me: I'm writ...'Well, look no further than James and me: I'm writing a report about the changing healthcare industry in the US, he's cooking the dinner and looking after the baby. Tomorrow I might be looking after the baby (although not cooking the dinner, because I can't cook) while he writes a kids' TV programme. It's all terribly equal.'<BR/><BR/>And there's your answer. Eliza will grow up knowing that men are just as good at cooking dinner and washing pants as women and that women go to work and become company directors just as often as men. I'm a great believer in leading by example - unfortunately this means my daughters are likely to grow up barefoot and pregnant with a strange ribbon fetish.Marsha Kleinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08276800200724342664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-886388748830230202008-12-10T10:48:00.000+00:002008-12-10T10:48:00.000+00:00^ Stephenson/Pegg! (Spaced)I guess it's mainly bec...^ Stephenson/Pegg! (Spaced)<BR/>I guess it's mainly because there are less female writers, meaning that there are less duos that include them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-17341486987406896172008-12-10T10:42:00.000+00:002008-12-10T10:42:00.000+00:00Another thing which occurs to me is that, in sitco...Another thing which occurs to me is that, in sitcoms anyway, the most successful writers tend to be duos - Galton and Simpson etc. It's very hard to write a sitcom alone. But the few women writers that there are all seem to be solo - I can't think of a single female writing duo (apart from performers like French and Saunders) or even male/female one (Connie Booth and John Cleese writing Fawlty Towers is the only one of those I can think of, though that didn't seem to turn out so well for her). Why is that? Just the lack of numbers? I don't know.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-61099048434383932012008-12-10T10:10:00.000+00:002008-12-10T10:10:00.000+00:00@Patroclus: oh no, you weren't insulting at all! I...@Patroclus: oh no, you weren't insulting at all! I just didn't understand why women might have less of a propensity to be single-minded. I do see what you mean, but I also agree with you that there's so many exceptions to the generalisation that it barely works.<BR/><BR/>The question that Anon brought up regarding women doing characters and men doing... what? All the bloomin' jokes?... is pretty uncomfortable. And I think the answer is in wot Patroclus said about self-fulfilling prophecies. If women think - based on... evidence?! - that their gender is more prone to character stuff, then they're more likely to go along with it.<BR/><BR/>Personally, I wouldn't - and don't - see that kind of thing as a motivation to do character stuff at all. I see it as a motivation to damn well avoid it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-4009177903461631192008-12-10T09:53:00.000+00:002008-12-10T09:53:00.000+00:00@Patroclus Hum, I disagree a bit, I think that by ...@Patroclus Hum, I disagree a bit, I think that by recognising how things are (biased towards to boys, coz it is, just look at the pay gap/nos of women at the top) we can be aware and not let it happen to us and quosh where it is happening e.g. making sure equal pay etc. (I like to quosh with a giant fly-swat)<BR/><BR/>But back to comedy and women...there was a time where women were stereotyped as only doing character/novelty acts. Character stuff is certainly something that I could see leading to writing (embodying diff voices leading nicely to dialogue writing) which harks back to some of the points our host Mr BlueCat was making. There are more straight standups that are women now, as far as I'm aware, but still plenty of character-ladys: Isy Suttie, the amazing Irish lady whose name I wish I could find but I saw her at the Fortnight Club once, Katy Brand, to name just a few. But then Josie Long writes and performs (loved the Skins sketches) without characters, as does Ruby Wax etc.<BR/><BR/>Questions: is it still the case that the majority of women are doing characters or is that a myth, and do as many men do character stuff? And, is it the women comedy/performers doing characters that tend to become performer/writers? Discuss.<BR/>CAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-87704437557996600952008-12-10T09:51:00.000+00:002008-12-10T09:51:00.000+00:00Btw I didn't mean women were unable to admit they ...Btw I didn't mean women were unable to admit they were funny, I said they were less likely to CLAIM to be funny - the difference between making a joke, and announcing, "Everyone be quiet, I'm about to make a brilliant joke!" Which is what you have to do if you write comedy. I accept the danger of generalisations, but even so I'd say more men than women were likely to operate like that. Perhaps more to do with social conditioning than uteri. Obviously most normal people of either sex would prefer not to be in that situation. <BR/><BR/>Also, Susan Nickson. As far as I can see, Two Pints is on telly more often than any other comedy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-29138519308459521642008-12-10T09:25:00.000+00:002008-12-10T09:25:00.000+00:00"I have no doubt in my mind that I could have beco..."I have no doubt in my mind that I could have become a captain of industry if I'd really wanted to." <BR/><BR/>I'm sure you could have, but if you were male you'd have to work less hard at convincing people that you are competent and would be the ideal candidate for captain of industry.<BR/>is what i think.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-42595116587002885002008-12-10T08:24:00.000+00:002008-12-10T08:24:00.000+00:00Newf: I don't understand. Why wouldn't women be as...Newf: <I>I don't understand. Why wouldn't women be as single-mindedly obsessive? We appear to be, in other aspects of life.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, I phrased this badly. I didn't mean to say women aren't generally determined, or focused, or anything like that, and I certainly didn't mean to come across as insulting. It just seems to me that men are more capable of being obsessive about a single thing to the exclusion of all else, whereas women tend to be less so. But making generalisations is rubbish, and I'm sure we could come up with hundreds of examples of really geeky, obsessive women.<BR/><BR/>It's very easy to 'blame the patriarchy' for the lack of women in senior roles in any given profession. Personally I don't like that way of thinking because it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy: if we believe the world has been biased against us since time began, it gives us a reason not to try to do anything about it. I have no doubt in my mind that I could have become a captain of industry if I'd really wanted to. I just didn't want to.patroclushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01933476561340044351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-73308447641384340592008-12-10T03:12:00.000+00:002008-12-10T03:12:00.000+00:00Oh, alsoalso... can I (be mildly obnoxious and) as...Oh, alsoalso... can I (be mildly obnoxious and) ask any ladywriters above if they've ever been the "victim" of gender-related bias in the writing industry? In other words, is all this zooming in on female writers (and celebrating the fact that they're female) actually happening in real life?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-11219577920099985942008-12-10T03:09:00.000+00:002008-12-10T03:09:00.000+00:00Damnit, I missed the live discussion.M'kay, how ab...Damnit, I missed the live discussion.<BR/><BR/>M'kay, how about this... maybe it's not actually about the mental differences between the genders, but more about the business itself. So it's not that females "can't" or "won't" or are "too much" or are "too little"; it's the industry that's all this. Blame it on what comedy has become, rather than the differences between the sexes.<BR/><BR/>@Patroclus: "You have to really, really, really want to do it. I'm not sure that many women are that single-mindedly obsessive in the way men often are." I don't understand. Why wouldn't women be as single-mindedly obsessive? We appear to be, in other aspects of life.<BR/><BR/>Like everyone else in the universe, I've wanted to make a living out of writing ever since I was a foetus. I got obsessed with scriptwriting specifically because when I was 15 I er, um, sort of wrote "fanscripts" for Green Wing and bandied them around the fansites. So... oh, I don't know, maybe women stumble across scriptwriting more by accident (like y'said, James, with regards to performers becoming writers), whereas men do so purposefully. Maybe the features of scriptwriting are intrinsically more attractive to men.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-60695891146858998452008-12-09T22:41:00.000+00:002008-12-09T22:41:00.000+00:00There's always Lizzie Mickery...There's always Lizzie Mickery...Good Doghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10789861569691613179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-58040992499017317302008-12-09T21:49:00.000+00:002008-12-09T21:49:00.000+00:00Cat: Absolutely. I'm all about the spectrums!James...Cat: Absolutely. I'm all about the spectrums!<BR/><BR/>James: Brilliant. Especially given the next line...Karen's Mouthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16398621248761437631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-68696577743998847372008-12-09T21:42:00.000+00:002008-12-09T21:42:00.000+00:00James: I'm simultaneously delighted to hear about ...James: I'm simultaneously delighted to hear about the TV industry and sad on behalf of the 'women's pictures'. Oh, world.<BR/><BR/>Patroclus: If only there were more like you two.<BR/><BR/>Karen's Mouth: I see your point. I'd debate it with you, but it's too long and not my blog. Just...I have no biological clock, many women don't and many men do. Nothing is simple. Which, as a biologist, you already know.<BR/><BR/>*re-relurks*<BR/><BR/>catAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-35225541472836651252008-12-09T21:36:00.000+00:002008-12-09T21:36:00.000+00:00KM: uteri are everything, the sweetest song that I...KM: uteri are everything, the sweetest song that I can sing.<BR/><BR/>Jayne: no, writers are terribly annoying, sorry.James Henryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604261370633794445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-56980208613137476562008-12-09T21:32:00.000+00:002008-12-09T21:32:00.000+00:00Cripes. Lots going on here. As a biologist I'd say...Cripes. Lots going on here. As a biologist I'd say a lot of it is down to biology. But I would say that.<BR/><BR/>I'm very single minded and borderline asperger's which I feel is why I'm a scientist. BUT I recently got married, the ticking of my biological clock is getting a bit louder and, well, there's a palpable conflict between my head and my uterus (metaphorically, anatomically that would be somewhere in my ribs I think). <BR/><BR/>The upshot being that my priorities are changing. And I wonder if it's less to do with personality traits as such and more to do with biological differences. I am aware this is a not necessarily a popular view, but I guess as the result of the field I work in it's difficult for me to get away from!<BR/><BR/>I think I'm not explaining myself all too well but I'm trying to be brief(ish).<BR/><BR/>James: apologies for bringing my uterus onto your comments threadKaren's Mouthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16398621248761437631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-82124275029206435452008-12-09T21:28:00.000+00:002008-12-09T21:28:00.000+00:00Actually that's unfair. I also hate everyone else....Actually that's unfair. I also hate everyone else.Jaynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09821105000840199542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10831518.post-43092216335096615072008-12-09T21:26:00.000+00:002008-12-09T21:26:00.000+00:00Carla Lane's the only comedy writer who's not a pe...Carla Lane's the only comedy writer who's not a performer I can think of in the UK.<BR/><BR/>Seems to be similar in the US, what with Tina Fey and Sarah Silverman up there as writer/performers. Although Jane Espenson wrote some of the funniest episodes in Buffy.<BR/><BR/>Other than that I'm keeping out of it. I'm having one of those <I>I hate all fucking writers</I> days...Jaynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09821105000840199542noreply@blogger.com